Talk:Rutha
Rob wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:18 AM
This lesson occasioned the new topic of Gentleness which shares roles as subtopics with Manner. The TR is unknown though it is likely either Bill Kelly or his daughter. Anyone know?
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:26 AM
I would credit Debbie Roberts with this transcript, Rob. She (aka "Rutha") was Daniel's primary T/R from the start of the Pocatello group in 1992 until she died in, I think it was 1997. Nancy did not come on strong as a T/R until later. --rdavis 16:44, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Identity & Privacy
Rob wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 11:47 AM Thanks Gerdean! I have created a page for Debbie Roberts and this afternoon will assign the lessons you cite to her.
p.s. I have entered this exchange into the Discussion page for Debbie for future reference.
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:00 PM
It's funny ... the lengths you go to to set forth historical facts are equal to the lengths I have gone to to protect the confidentiality of these people. Part of the work I did in preparing my transcripts appropriate for publication was to take out all the names by which humans could be identified and replace them with spiritual names and/or pseudonyms to protect their innocence, and you are running around behind me exposing them. Well, at least Debbie is dead now so she is saved the trouble of spiritual persecutions by TeaM detractors.
Rob wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:48 PM I am not wanting to expose anyone as much as learn as much as possible about the particular lesson and fill in missing details. If it is known that the TR would prefer to be anonymous, then that should be what the record reflects. Did Debbie make it known that she wished to be anonymous? If so, I will delete the record.
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:07 PM We were all naive in "the glory days." We thought everybody would be thrilled to know of the Teachers. Alas, that was not the case. In time, the harassment got to be such that the Pocatello group removed ALL the names of the human students and replaced those names with "Student T1" or "Student B3." I believe it was after they had done that, that they they submitted their CD to tmarchives. So, it was not so much that Debby had asked for anonymity as the group itself had made that decision on behalf of those who attended. It's called "confidentiality."
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:10 PM
There were those who were active with the Teaching Mission who did not want their family, friends, and fellow readers in the Fellowship or Foundation to know the extent of their affiliation. There are STILL people in our TeaM community who opt to live in the closet rather than come out to the Urantia community.
Rob wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:40 PM
Thank you Gerdean! I can appreciate the sentiments underpinning a desire to avoid hostility, but it hands "us" the present dilemma of what to do with Debbie's work. Do we attribute it to her now? She no longer has any cause for concern and her identity and human story lends a dimension that is missing without it. What do you or others think? In effect, we are acting on her behalf.
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 4:09 PM
Although Debbie herself has no longer any reason to protect her anonymity, there is the additional consideration due to her family, heirs, loved ones and others upon whom her actions and beliefs reflect. Like Susan Kimsey. I did not know her well, but I know she came from a monied family; she inherited well and she left a good financial legacy to others who, in essence, inherited her estate. Whether Susan (or any other transmitter) considers their transcripts part of their personal estate is a question that has been bandied about for years.
Consider the writings of Edgar Casey. An institution was built to accommodate all his notes. It is vast. There are a lot of people who have vested interests in Edgar Casey's legacy. And there will be people who have vested interests in tmarchives and the nordan symposium which are both creating an institution with other people's works -- with or without their permission or cooperation.
The delightful thing about being naive is being able to give without expectation or reward or avoid concern about what might happen in the future. But the future will come, ready or not, and how we deal with these matters today will reflect on our integrity as individuals tomorrow; it reflect also on the effectiveness of these institutions and/or the future individual collections which may or may not be included in TMArchives, Daynal, Harp, etc.
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 4:10 PM
The Pocatello group has already acted on her behalf. I believe she is T/R #1.
Rob wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 4:20 PM
I gather then you are undecided as to how to proceed with regard to Debbie's work. For my part, I will leave it as is for the moment given that work is required to create recognition and as well to remove it.
Gerdean wrote: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:11 PM
No, I am not undecided as to how to proceed with regard to Debbie's work. As far as I am concerned, she is Rutha. I proceeded accordingly in editing my transcripts for my archives to make sure the mortal Debbie Roberts and her heirs' confidentiality were protected. I cannot say what you should do regarding the Nordan Symposium, Rob, (and Ron Besser never asked for our opinion regarding what to do about confidentiality on TMArchives until it was too late), so until there is a bona fide committee that represents the entire community of TeaM T/R's, such as you originally suggested and which I am led to believe will never exist, we are back to square one ... each of us doing what we believe to be the right thing to do under the circumstances and in response to what we believe is our "calling." In other words, "self will run riot," as usual.
Cheers! Gerdean
Rob wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 9:50 AM
Thank you! Are you suggesting that instead of using the name Debbie Roberts, we should use Rutha? Otherwise, there could be the attribution Unknown which is what exists now. Of these, which do you think is advisable knowing Debbie as you do?
Ron Besser wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 10:11 AM
Rob and Gerdean,
I am not criticizing this effort to come to terms about the use of the names of participants in the transmissions that are being archived. But I wish to point out that Machiventa Melchizedek, Christ Michael, and others including Monjoronson, have asked that we include as full information in a transcript we can and to leave in the names of personalities who were in every session in order to be clear about what was done when and to whom and how the age this teaching mission appeared in is so different from those who are reading them a hundred years from now.
You will find that I have attempted to keep identifies in tact regardless of the various different decisions to modify the policy over time from many others. It should be noted with pride that each individual who participated in the teaching mission was both courageous and of service to the Most Highs and even to the Salvington God and Goddess who gave us life in the first place. Hindsight of those who have transitioned from Urantia, and who worked hard to bring the teaching mission to notice, will be full of regret if we do not give them their do in the material records both Rob and I archive.
Thanks for considering this alternative view.
Ron
Rob wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 10:54 AM
Hello Ron-
I appreciate your recognition of the desire of our planetary administrators to "flesh out" as much as possible, the human complement of the divine initiatives which the records attest!
The records in question are not now associated with a TR name in TMArchives. Where such missing information exists, I have used the term "Unknown" to create a category of material that might benefit from additional information as it may become available.
As I proceed through the review of the Dialogues, I am simply inquiring with those who may know these missing details. Of course, with early material it could also pertain to the accuracy of the existing record due to sketchy conditions you outlined earlier.
In my opinion, short of violating the declared intention of any to remain anonymous, I think this historical data should be included. However, we are living in the wake of initial phases, and many participants have passed on leaving us to ascertain as best we can working together how to proceed. In this regard, your thoughts are helpful as would be any others who either know or care about the records at issue.
My part is to appeal to the collective intelligence of this inchoate community to make decisions informed by the largest pool of experience, and I look forward to further dialogue.
Gratefully,
Rob
Gerdean wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 12:20 PM
While our celestial overseers have expressed an interest in maintaining an archive of these historic documents in order to give credence to our co-creative efforts to establish human/divine discourse, I like to think they are mindful of the myriad ways we abuse one another on this planet and they would not want their students to expose themselves or their families to the abuse or alienation of affections that can come from religious shunning or that give rise to undue religious persecutions. Most of us have skin as thick as a rhinoserous and nothing to hide, but there are some who are ultra sensitive, or who have reason to want to maintain their anonymity. By law, we must respect a person's anonymity whether we personally like it or not. I don't believe that Machiventa, Christ Michael or any other respectable supernal would ask us to be duplicitous on their behalf. Nor are they dictatorial.
Even Jesus knew enough to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and our mortal identity is ours; we have a right and a duty to protect it. I think we can all agree that the transcripts that were deposited into TMTranscripts as a repository for all our good works, were submitted in good faith as an historic record. That they were so suddenly thrust upon the world, before they could be prepared for public consumption is an oversight we are still struggling to overcome.
Those of us who use our "spiritual name" have already committed a part of ourselves to that reality. I would not hesitate to use the identity of "Calvin" or "Rebecca" or "Rutha" or "Gerdean" or "Roland" in a transcript because, by use of this pseudonym, they are already protected, or willing to be a pioneer. But there are others who are not so bold and we need to protect them from themselves by changing their name to protect the innocent. We have that obligation. The designation "Student" or "B3" or "C2" is entirely too impersonal for most folks taste, but it does at least provide the reader the opportunity to appreciate the relationship that exists between the student and the teacher, if not so much the students' relationship with the other students.
Even the teachers make up names! Monjoronson has admitted his name is probably something other than Monjoronson. Jack's "name" is 0802-AB, but he says to call him "Jack" so we will know he is just a cousin, much like us. The point is that we recognize one another as a personality, not that it be the same name as is on our birth certificate, marriage license or business license. As we have been told by certain teachers, their name is unpronounceable so they assume an alias for our convenience. We should be allowed the same courtesy.
Those of us who establish these T/R groups and lure others to attend, coupled with the Teachers constant invocation to Ask Questions without telling them they are being recorded and that their words will be broadcast tomorrow on the world wide web, are negligent. It is not so critical these days, because we better understand the effects of such exposure, but those who were used and abused as a result of their cyberspace exposure to TeaM in its "glory days" still need to be respected. If nothing else, we need to learn the lesson: we can't just take what we want and use it as we will and say God told us to without regard to the effect it has on others.
Gerdean
Rob wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 12:43 PM
Hello Gerdean-
I appreciate your thoughts! In the case of Rutha aka Debbie Roberts, it seems that it may be best to use her pseudonym. Of course, each group is different and will define these matters for themselves. The records shared generally reflect what exposure is allowed. Where there are questions and the group does not exist, "we" will have to use our best judgment knowing it can and does tend to be changed.
Gratefully,
Rob
p.s. The "Glory Days" tends to be a subjective evaluation. We know "glory" is a state awaiting faithful souls who hear the affirmation of our Father in any child with whom He is well pleased.
Marty Greenhut wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:43 PM
Is there a transcript from Michael of Machiventa in which we are told to record the names of the T/Rs for the historic record?
I have heard that we are free will creatures whose free will is respected.
When I first came to the teaching mission as an investigative reporter for Jim Cleveland's Light and Life Journal, we were preparing an edition to be given to UBers at IC 2000. It was all about the Teaching Mission for the straight UBers to read (of whom I was one).
When I wanted to use a photo of attendees at a TeaM conference in California for the cover, all hell broke loose and no one would give me any further information or help.
It took me a very long time to understand and relate to that experience but, alas, I do understand it after having worked in the TeaM all these years.
I believe that the records of our world's history that are kept by the recording angels will cover all of the needed information for posterity.
Marty
Rob wrote: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:04 PM
Hello Marty,
Even if there were such records, Machiventa, like our Thought Adjusters, would necessarily be deferring to our choices. Obviously, each individual is responsible for their own degree of disclosure in regards to participation in the evolving partnership of humanity and divinity. My objective is to honor each individual's preference as much as it can be ascertained. In cases where the persons are deceased, I will rely upon the sense of those who knew them. Barring that, I will leave the record as it is, which in some cases will entail a missing piece of the picture in the human record, and it is just such a human records that will be referenced by interested humans. Celestial records are another matter, and these too have their policy disputes reconciled in ways we are invited to manifest more on earth as in heaven in each moment.
Gratefully,
Rob
